hi there
can anyone tell me that is there anyway we can prevent our project cd being ilegally copied.
Our Requirement is this that our project should only be used by the CD holder , anywhere anyplace but it should not be used by the one who copies  that CD.
If we put a check on volume no of CD then it is copied as well on CD to CD copy
does anyone has any idea/logic over this Problem


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SO it means no one has any solution/Algorithem to this problem..!!!!
not even the guru's....!!!!!


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It's kind of like this, if it were possible, MP3's wouldn't exist, and no software (ex: Microsoft, Adobe, Corel) would ever require license keys. Software piracy wouldn't even be a word.

To prevent copying any device the device'd have to be damaged beyond repair. Even then, some of the data can be retrieved, so even then it's not possible.

An old DOS way was to mark a part of the floppy disk as bad, then check for that "bad" sector for a value. Although utilities existed to bypass that method too. But for a CD, you'd have to design a software program to mark part of the CD as bad (if it's even possible), but then it could probably be copied, or a hack would exist within months of it's release (if it's a popular software program).

As a note though... If you did find a way to somewhat hinder the ability to copy a CD, it'd be inconvienent for the legitimate reasons-> making a backup in case the original disk is damaged. And it'd possibly prevent network installs (unless they have CD server).


[Edited by JLRodgers on 09-02-2003 at 11:46 PM GMT]

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Everywhere's Local (classifieds, job postings, & more for everycity in the world - user entered)

ok i 100 % agree with what u have written
but
if we cant do it physically (not by serial no or volume no etc check) then can we do it logically i mean by bluffing the user by some means ??
also
Can  data-encryption be helpful in this case ??
but it would also reaequire a key then is there any way we can hide that key ?
or there is some other way with which we can bluff the user lke a "virus signal" type thing ?
it seems pretty stupid but may be it would guide us to a solution..!!!
any suggestions ?


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this i have to say...

the illegality of this issue also relies on the honesty of the original user him/herself.

i he/she would be the one to create the new copy, then out of dishonesty, it would have been considered illegal, meaning that if you are guaranteed, or given the assumption that the user of your project cd will not copy or create illegal copies of your cd, then the way to do it is by giving him/her a license key.

the only secure way to keep them from using duplicates that i know and use when i develop my programs for sale, is to confine them to one computer, requiring them to submit their pc's serial number and other info that are useful to me before purchasing the product, with mention that the S/N is required for software protection purposes, then i would insert the serial key into the program, compile, burn, then sell to the buyer.

i know it's tedious, but hey, it works for me and i get to sell, but others who do not want to buy after discovering what i ask are obviously afraid of something... and its usually that they're afraid of not being able to pirate it.

the only way that i know they can go around it is to provide the same windows installer so that the systm and the cd are somewhat compatible, but then i did require other info that make them limit the number of those the can sell pirated copies too...

basically, the best way to prevent piracy is to confine the user to a single computer.



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Been busy trying to take a second degree <--it's not working out...

The last idea (vbgen's) can cause potential problems when upgrading PC's though (I know of a company that did that, it was horrible doing any upgrades, anything required re-buying the software).

There is a variation of it, store specific non-changing info into a database (encrypted) on the local PC (such as processor, video card, memory...). Then do 1 of the following: 1)Create the DB on the user's end (after verifying that it's not already registered), then store it on your companies DB (via internet) or 2) have them provide the info, then you create the encrypted DB, and send it to them.

While numerous PC's can use the same DB, it'd decrease piracy (and be a lot easier than re-compiling the program for every customer). It'd fall into the same category as vbgen's idea, but just be easier for you.

As a note: create a GUID for the database (and keep a local copy for your company's use [who's registered->computer specifics]) that way if they call due to an upgrade, you can ask for specific info that only the true owner would know or even a copy of the database, or the GUID (have the program display or something) so you can look up the info. It would help even further to decrease piracy (send along in paper form specific info that they'd need [other than system specifics] if they'd need a new key (like from formatting).

Of course any anti-piracy method would require a small staff (depending on the # of copies sold) to handle the keys.

There's a program in (well, Visual Studio anyway, but available other places too like the Platform SDK) that creates GUID's. It's in X:Microsoft Visual StudioCommonToolsGuidGen. Use the "registry format" option.

[Edited by JLRodgers on 10-02-2003 at 11:23 AM GMT]

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Everywhere's Local (classifieds, job postings, & more for everycity in the world - user entered)

guys u r absolutely right
my quesion is that is
by putting a check on cd creation date can we prevent piracy
i mean letus compile the exe file with the cd creation date in it and put a check on that date now when the user copies that cd he would not know about that particler problem
and as a result may be able to copy  CD but not able  to run the software !
What do u say !!
if this is possible kindly tell me how we can get CD creation DATE Attribute in VB
Regards
Ahmad

[Edited by ahmad on 11-02-2003 at 01:10 PM GMT]

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that idea would be good to use, but on how to get the CD date, i have no idea right now...

also, using this method would mean probably that you would have to have the CD in its drive for the program to work, since it would always have to check if the disk is the original through the date... which a lot of users also do not appreciate much.

hope this givse a little more light on the subject.



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Been busy trying to take a second degree <--it's not working out...

by cd time i meant any files creation time
e.g an abc.mdb files creation time


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The following may be of use:

http://www.andreavb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=581&page=0#1500



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Everywhere's Local (classifieds, job postings, & more for everycity in the world - user entered)

thnx guys we implemented that idea of checking our cd file creation date time check, the idea was based on the idea that whenever we copy a file from hard disk to hard disk then the file creation date of the second file is that original (1st file's)  modification date. (the files have these two attributes date wise) we thaught that of applying the same thing on cd .
the idea was e.g if we crreated a file on our cd on 1 feb 2003 and put a check in our program that if it finds the cd creation date 1 feb 2003 then proceed else donot .
we were optimistic about this idea but unfortunately ulike hard disk to hard disk copy it copied the original file's creation date same on cd 's second file
i mean 1 feb 2002 in both files so it failed
I think  if we can find any small thing/attribute that changes whenever cd to cd copy takes place then may b we can prevent piracy to some extent what do u say ??

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Not sure if this'd work (as in if CD's actually have a Serial number that'd not be copied) but:

http://www.allapi.net/apilist/GetVolumeInformation.shtml

Of course then you'd have the problem of not knowing the serial number before you compile the program, and it'd have to be hard coded (or coded to read a file that you provide via e-mail or floppy disk that has the serial number of the disk). You'd then have to have that number encrypted, althought it could be broken...



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Everywhere's Local (classifieds, job postings, & more for everycity in the world - user entered)

yes, JL's right. and, if he were to continue with his post message... you'd end up with other problems concerning this issue...

well, i have asked a friend about this.. and like JL's post..

hard coding wouldbe needed, and mass creation of the product would take much longer to finish.

one tacky way to do this is to go autorun, and the instance would be that no other program can run while your program is running, overloading any instance of new programs by killing each new process, then insuring that at the end of the program you'd flush the cd gate out, so that the user cannot gain any access to the cd while it's running.

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Been busy trying to take a second degree <--it's not working out...

And even with autorun, it's disabled on many computers (I'm sure XP can autorun CDs, but it wasn't set by default, which I've come to prefer), so even if you coded some elaborate program to verify stuff, it'd not get run on many PC's. Not to mention those people who'd actually pirate the CD would automatically go searching on the CD to see how to bypass it (and would disable autorun if they saw what the program did, if it weren't already).

Then you'd have the real problems... The people running Linux. They could potentially copy the CD without any problems, even bypass any security you have setup in it to burn new pirated versions.

Kind of goes back to the Microsoft protection of an encrypted DB with system specs, all registered on a Microsoft database (well, basic idea anyway). The thing is, if there were some easy way to do it, Microsoft would be the first to implement it.

Every company faces this problem, even the big ones. Unfortunately, it's the small companies (or individuals) that have the hardest time.


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Everywhere's Local (classifieds, job postings, & more for everycity in the world - user entered)

Since this was brought up in another topic... http://www.andreavb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=1205
I thought I'd toss in my $.02...and find out if anyone had thought of anything fresh to add to the CD issue...

The real issue here is piracy, or rather anti-piracy, right? So IMO the best way with current technology to control piracy of your software is to forget about trying to control (CD/File) duplication, but to control the installation, then check for a correct installation at runtime - as some have mentioned. There may be a hundred diff ways to do this...but how to be non-intrusive to the user and stay secure from piracy and hacks is a fine balance...darn users...............

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Eggheads unite! You have nothing to lose but your yolks.

Anything we do to prevent piracy is probably gonna be decompiled and a patch created for some script-kiddy to use.

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maybe you could create a floppy disk that comes with the cd.
the program on the floppy loads it's self into the ram then deletes it's self. the file in the ram installs the cd then deletes it's self from the ram again.

well,,, the case against that would be that you'd have to use a floppy and a cd just to install software...

to many people... such difficulty in installing or so much work or action nedded to be taken in setting software up just seems so irritating...

that would probably be the issue to face if that's what you intend to do...

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Been busy trying to take a second degree <--it's not working out...

quote:

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you'd have to use a floppy and a cd just to install software

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quote:

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Anything we do to prevent piracy is probably gonna be decompiled and a patch created for some script-kiddy to use.

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The problem with floppy is what if it gets corrupt
Also if it deletes itself after instalation as stuartalex said then it means that we can only install the software once which i believe may complicate things
if u noitce hard disk to hard disk or cd to hard disk copy then you would see changes in file's attributs like modification date of  original becoming creation date of copy etc
we tried to check this in CD to CD copy but in it,
the attributs remained same had there been any small change in file attributs we could hav put  a check on that and our problem may had solved but it was not the case
on net i had also seen a company that used something called digital signature which was actually burnt on cd and cant be copied by normal burning
this signature was checked by the software of program now even if u copy that software u cant copy the digital signature
and when the software doesnt finds it on pirated CD it doesnt run's
I dont remember the site but it was very intresting
also the following site has some other technique of digital signature
http://www.intellect.vsu.ru/en/protection/cdrom/macrovision_e.htm
For  IT Professioals its as complex problem as reaching mars
for nasa

Ahmad

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The only problem with the digital signature is that you need to buy a certificate for it., although it would probably be worth its price if you are even worrying to try and protect it.

____________________________
We have a Mustek 5 M/Pix GSm@rt USB Digital Camera
for just £74.03 , offer only on until 30th February!

<AllDuck.com>      

Enquiries/Sales: 0845 430 9862
Fax: 0870 950 4532

Well I beleive I got a way to limit your software to run on only one computer .
I used it on a network management  software that i wrote.

I got an API function that gets The Mac Address
then u store the MAC in a variabel and if the variabel fits the one u specified then the program will run if not it will end .

but this is abit unpractical.

U'll have to customize it for every computer that it has to run on.

Well, if it's on a companies network, there's a lot of options other than hard coding a MAC address. Especially since if you replace network cards, and the program's got to be redone (or you get access to the program).



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Everywhere's Local (classifieds, job postings, & more for everycity in the world - user entered)

Why not using a token instead? like an external key (a device) that attach to the computer LPT, serial or USB? Your software then can check the existence of this device and take the necessary action.

I remember a website called "Rainbow Techlogies" selling the stuffs.


Just a thought  

~Labu

Labu, are you saying that we check what hardware components are installed in the user's pc? ...that's tough to pull off....


by the way... i just found out that there are new developed ways to crack programs... particularly, VISUAL BASIC.

i heard that the authors realized that there are several good programs out there that are made from vb coding...

just a tot.  

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Been busy trying to take a second degree <--it's not working out...

there are quite a few commercial apps out there that check for the existence of hardware (sometimes called "locks" - for years AutoCAD had them) usually connected to parrallel or serial, but could be usb device, or pratically any other common current tech...folks like these sell the stuff
http://www.keylok.com/?source=overture

and you can find the deciding factors of using this tech here...

http://www.keylok.com/Pricing.htm

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Eggheads unite! You have nothing to lose but your yolks.

vbgen touched on a rather big subject that is seemingly being ignored that no matter what you do or how good your system for anti-piracy is some "script kiddy" as you so affectionately call them will bring this method to it's knees in a matter of weeks. In fact there is an enterprise edition of VS 6 floating around that has been cracked and zipped and it is easier to install than the cd version. The same applies to the winodws system there is a cracked version of XP Pro on kazaa as well. Programs can be decompiled, hexed, or any other of the things that they do to inhibit our efforts... This applies especially to the ideas that are comparisons such as checking if a certain variable in your code is equivelant to that of one on your dbase a cracker could change a few values in a hex editor and it would flip your "if..." statement around. Of course you could play around with the people and make your code jump or w/e but even then once you are on the trail and you have the reference to that segment of hex code it is comparatively easy to follow that trail.

we are not ignoring or arguing that any piece of digital data can be copied or hacked...we all agree on this. how best to combat this with reliability, low cost and low intrusion on the user...secure, easy and cheap...the is the question...solutions like checking for CD date and the hardware locks are just a few examples...heck for $50 I can get a 40GB hard drive to provide to the user with my product on it and space for data as well...it's out of the box options like these that we're looking for

[Edited by ~Bean~ on 26-05-2003 at 10:00 PM GMT]

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Eggheads unite! You have nothing to lose but your yolks.

i guess we have to face the probable fact that....

if we can't protect our software through coding..

it seems we would have to look towards electronics.

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of course, i am downright against this...

and i guess that's how most of us feel, and that's why we still try to come up with ideas to protect our software.

keep 'em comin', boyz and girlz... this issue ain't close to dyin' yet!  

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Been busy trying to take a second degree <--it's not working out...

Is it possible to have a password to the program that is randomly generated so the first time a program is installed you know the password but after that it is random. I have no idea if this is practical or not.